4th edition DnD

Home Forums Discussion Forums Makes you go, Hmmmm? 4th edition DnD

This topic contains 21 replies, has 11 voices, and was last updated by  Lt. Tyler August 28, 2008 at 2:02 am.

Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #33008

    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    This is something I had said to do but never got to. Well here’s my thoughts on 4th ed:

    Let’s start with the basics. This isn’t your old DnD they basically took everything and threw it out the window. They said as much at GenCon this last weekend by the way. Levels are now divided into tiers, 1-10 is heroes, 11-20 is paragon, and 21-30 is epic. Each tier has access to different paths and different feats.

    Defenses: So there’s no more saving throws, now there’s just 4 defense numbers; AC, Fortitude, reflex, and willpower. To hit with a particular power the monster (or PC) has to roll and d20 and with modifiers meet or exceed the defense number. They basically made everything an AC. Shields add to both AC and reflex by the way and there is no longer a max dex modifier, light armor allows a dex mod and heavy doesn’t. Armor only adds to AC.

    Powers are distributed into 4 types, At-will, encounter, Daily, and utility (which can be any of the preceding three as far as how many times you can use it), their names indicate how often they can be used. The class powers have different power sources, i.e. arcane for mage or martial for fighter. Each power has, besides a number of times it can be used, an area of effect, what the main ability modifier it uses, what defense it’s used against, range, and effects. So, for instance, a mage might have Magic missile, an At-will power which targets 1 creature within 20 squares (5 feet each), and is intelligence Vs. reflex. The power then says “Hit: 2d4 + intelligence modifier force damage” … It also has a special ability but that’s not important. As you can surmise the encounter powers are more powerful and the daily are usually the most powerful. Utilities are usually just that, for instance a mage utility spell is feather fall (Daily) or Expeditious retreat (daily also).

    Starting HP: Your starting HP is now 10+ your constitution score. Not con mod. You gain HP as a fixed number, for instance for mages it’s +4 per level. No con mod is figured in. This was done to provide fairly even HP at low levels but quickly divergent at higher levels. Don’t worry, damage was stepped up on the monsters to compensate.

    You now heal using “healing surges” each character possesses these. They can only be used in certain instances. Like when a cleric grants you the use of one or once when you are at 1/2 your HP or less in battle. Healing surges automatically give you back 1/4 your HP when used. You get a number of them per day determined by your class and con modifier.

    Skills: You no longer train them per level, once you take your initial training in them those are the skills you have. The initial training at creation gives you +5. Skills that can’t be used untrained no longer exist (but many DM’s are house ruling this because it’s stupid a fighter can roll arcana etc…). The way they do go up is that 1/2 your level is added to them.

    In fact 1/2 your level is added to a lot of things. This is the main way stats increase. 1/2 level is added to initiative, defenses, attack bonus, and skills, or anything that uses an ability modifier.

    Ok so what you have here is a drastically different system. I know I didn’t tell you everything but I did hit the highlights of things changed. For instance speed still pretty much works the same, initiative does too. Now I will move onto my thoughts.

    The reasons for this major change was they wanted to build a fun, easy to use, streamlined system that didn’t bog down in battle. For the most part they succeeded. The battles are very tactical because the rolls each class plays is well defined. A fighter is a defender (meat shield) as is the paladin, rogues, rangers, and warlocks are strikers (glass cannons), warlords and clerics are leaders (buffers/healers), and wizards are controllers (crowd management). There are no more lone heroes a defender without help can take a hell of a beating but he can’t dish out enough damage, strikers are good at killing things but they can’t take a hit or deal with large numbers well, wizards deal with large numbers well but can’t output large damage or take a hit, and leaders without anyone to lead just die. It is quite a change from the old system let me tell you, the first couple battles we tried to handle like 3.5 and we got our butt’s handed to us.

    Things I like: I like the tactical battle it can be fun with a well oiled group. I like the ease at which you can pick up the system, play one class and you can pick up on another class quickly because there are only minor differences. The system is pretty simple because it all comes down to rolling a d20. I have yet to plot my characters path out but i’m told plotting it out is pretty easy. Overall the system is pretty balanced there isn’t really the power discrepancy between the classes there was before. I am told that from a DM’s perspective it is pretty simple to throw together a well made and balanced encounter. I am also told that this is even possible at the uber high levels which before was a problem with 3.5 which pretty much fell apart at 20+.

    Little things I dislike: Rituals are spells you have no business casting in battle according to their opinion. Mages and Clerics get them with the “Ritual casting” feat they gain at 1st level. This I don’t mind, honestly I don’t need to cast comprehend languages or tensers floating disk in battle. However, to ensure this casting didn’t happen in battle they made the spells take 10 minutes and 10 gold/level (with some higher costing exceptions) to cast each time. The gold cost at first level is a killer and irks me to no end. The death system is whack too. When you got to negative HP and don’t take more than your con score in negative damage you go into the “dying” state. Each round you get to roll a d20 to save Vs death. A roll of 1-9 you get worse, 10-19 you stay the same, and 20 you stabilize. You die after getting worse three times. No matter if you are at -1 or -9 it’s the same. This annoys me too. The game in general lacks some realism. For instance reach weapons don’t threaten in the far square they can hit, which is dumb. I can see why they did it but it’s still dumb. Skill challenges are these new “combatless encounters” they cooked up. On paper it sounds like a great idea but someone really doesn’t understand probability math. Basically you have some encounter where the party is supposed to use their skills to overcome the situation. When the party reaches X success they win if they get to Y failures first they fail; X is usually greater than Y. The problem is the way they have it set up the probability of failure is greater than the probability of success. Again a quick at the table house rule can fix this. Also, at GenCon, 90% of the DM’s couldn’t implement these skill challenges in any fashion that was fun. Mostly it came down to them asking us what skill we’d like to roll from a list of possibles as outlined by the module, bleh. Magic items were supposed to be downplayed but they did this to the effect of almost making the useless. They didn’t even supply any low level rings in the PhB this will supposedly be taken care of soon. Some classes were left out, notably monks, druids, bards, and barbarians. All these classes and more a slated to be included in later editions. Lastly at low levels you soooooo get sick of your at-will powers, luckily every level you can exchange one power for another if you want.

    Major dislikes: I only have 1 real major dislike. This is that every class feels pretty much the same. Well not quite the same. Yes I feel like I am a controller or defender or striker … etc … depending on what I am playing but it just feels like a fighter that’s a controller. I suppose that’s because i’m used to my classes being drastically mechanically different depending on what they are and now all that really separates the classes is the fluff. If you liked playing a mage because in the end you were teh uber and no one effed with you say goodbye to those days. The balancing of the classes has removed some of the individuality of them, but I think that was inevitable with the goal of balancing. Sure the powers are all different and the feats the classes take are pretty different but it still feels somewhat the same. Maybe i’ll get over this as I play more.

    Alright well there’s my really long posting on 4th edition. I don’t even think I scratched the surface. I never even covered races or anything. If you have questions feel free to ask them of me. I definitely still recommend trying 4th edition out but you will need to forget what you know of DnD already. It is best to approach this from the standpoint of a new game. If you do that it’s a decent game overall with some very good points to it.

    TL; DR: Try 4th ed DnD but keep an open mind and throw out any preconceptions. Feel free to ask questions.

    – mule

    edit: bleh this thing needs some grammatical revision sorry for the poor sentence structure.

    #57002

    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    Thank You for this review Mule! It’s much appreciated. I’ll be sure to pass it along to my gaming group and see if they have any questions for ya. 😀

    Thanks again!
    Cor

    #57003

    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Nice effort, Mule! Thanks for the report; it’s very enlightening.

    I had always felt that v3 and v3.5 were waaaaay too cumbersome, particularly in combat encounters. And even around levels 12-13, things became ridiculously over-powered. But this system sounds like Pokemon battles: you only think there’s a difference due to the outer covering. But it’s the same mechanic over and over again. At face value, I’m not interested.

    I’ll stick with my dream system/personal hybrid (if I ever end up with a paper & pencil group ever again): mainly 2nd edition, with 3rd edition AC and saving throws. No complex feats; simply a liberal sprinkling of skills and ability score checks. I also have this odd obsession in making magic powers fluid and ‘creative’, while more physically costly on those that cast them, but exponentially more lethal. Like 2nd edition psionics but more free-form. It’s a Hyborean illness, I reckon.

    In my theory, individualism is greatly rewarded, while gameplay is reasonably streamlined.

    #57004

    Valgrimm
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Honestly why the need to change everything. They are just stealing money from the same people. The uber dnd guy with a library will go out and buy all the new books. I won’t and I have atleast 25 dnd books from various incarnations. Is 4.0 really going to bring in that many new players? Oh it’s a new system I’ll start playing dnd then. *sarcasm*

    I don’t mind updating things, and am all for adding new content. But I am not psyched about retooling the entire system.

    Anyone want to buy some old dnd books?

    #57005

    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    If you have the reissued versions of the 2nd edition DMs Guide and Player’s Handbook (the ones with the black covers), I’d consider it. I ended up selling mine a few years ago in a fit of de-cluttering.

    #57006

    Osay
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    As far as I’m conserned, 2nd ed. was fine, played it for many years. I never got the 3rd ed, and I won’t be getting this either.

    #57007

    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Well theoretically 4th ed will bring in many new players because the threshold for entering the game has just been lowered again. With 2nd edition and then 3rd edition the problem was splat books. There was just too much material for a new player to take in all at once just to play. Yes, they could just play with the core rules but then they’d see all the other people playing with all this strange material and the DM’s using some of it with their monsters and as the theory goes would feel intimidated and not want to play. With the publishing of 4th edition the slate has been wiped clean. I also got to see their plans for what will be coming out in the next year and it looks like they’ll just clutter is back up again.

    I’ll stick with my dream system/personal hybrid (if I ever end up with a paper & pencil group ever again): mainly 2nd edition, with 3rd edition AC and saving throws. No complex feats; simply a liberal sprinkling of skills and ability score checks. I also have this odd obsession in making magic powers fluid and ‘creative’, while more physically costly on those that cast them, but exponentially more lethal. Like 2nd edition psionics but more free-form. It’s a Hyborean illness, I reckon

    You sir will want to look into the whitewolf systems. Particularly the Mage book. Their magic system is fairly freeform and has a drawback to going at it too much (paradox).

    – mule

    #57008

    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    I expected WotC to follow their typical marketing plan for D&D once they bought it out: awesome artwork with new material every six months. I think they outdid themselves by re-doing the entire D&D system twice in–what was it…six or seven years? That takes some balls. Making the previous product line irrevocably obsolete. Even Microsoft waits a little while longer before they outdate the previous version…

    I’ll have to take a look at the Mage system when the stars are right and I have some free time.

    And just for clarification, what I really meant by “Hyborean illness” was–of course–the Hyborean Age. “Conan the Barbarian” style wizardry…Spell-slingers being very few and far between, shrouded in superstition, able to command tremendous power but at tremendous personal cost. Musty tomes and grisly summonings, often trafficking in otherworldly beings. Specifically, casting spells can pay off big but causes fatigue in varying degrees (for example: loss of HP, Constitution, etc. temporarily in most cases); more power is at your command as the caster’s level increases.

    Totally off-topic; sorry about that.

    #57009

    Opinvu
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    After reading all of these replies and thinking of what Mule has stated…. It sounds to me lik ehtey were thinking hte clean slate road, and for other purpses. Such purpses as their program and future games. Maybe we will see a new Dungeons and Dragons Online MMORPG later on that uses this new rulset to it’s fullest.

    They didn’t have compeditors like Ever Quest and Final Fantasy… and all those other near D&D systems competeing for the ultimate fun rule set. At the advent of D&D and it created the compeditors, but now they are working to step it up. (to bad the creator isn’t around to see this)

    From my perspective, I see allot more combinations possible for the power gamers to need much more playing to fully try every combination.

    In a sense this new system sounds a bit more sound anways. Most games launched come with patches. DD 1st got patched and upgraded to 2, then it was patched, and updated to 3. All to provide more possibilites to scenarios and new hurdles to put in the paths. (more combinations of scenarios to solve/deal with)

    #57010
    Thrym
    Thrym
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs: Grottle, Gruzk, Ashimar

    I just hope they realize that they have effectively lost a lot of “oldtimers,” such as myself, who tire of buying new gear.

    I’ve done it enough to say there’s no perfect system and while I believe in making things better I think there’s a HUGE difference between remodeling and starting over.

    I want to be clear here … I bought into 2nd Edition. I got ALL of the Monster Compendium Supplements (the three ring binders of monsters was INGENIOUS), I bought ALL of the Magic Item Manuals, AND the Wizard Spell Books, AND the Cleric Cards (another ingenious idea), AND the Class Handbooks.

    Great concepts. Sitting on a shelf in my dining room.

    3rd Edition came around … Simplification. Like it. No more THAC0. Simpler system of determining success (DCs). More options for taking PCs outside the archetypes (the classes) and creating your idea of a true hero or retched scum. So I bought into it. It’s a solid system that I still play.

    Then the crackpots from WotC’s business dept jumped in.

    3.5 … okay … changes and improvements are to be commended but it’s only been a short period of time. And a HALF upgrade to a gaming system? This isn’t a video game you can just download an update or add an expansion.

    They could EASILY have issued a supplement to the game … they’ve done it enough over the years.

    And now … 4.0.

    Okay, the digital age has come and WotC wants its fair cut. Fine. But honestly, a WHOLE new system?

    Sure, combat takes time in PnP. You can streamline it all you want but it will still be time consuming in a dice rolling, sit around the table format. People waffle, they hem and haw, others tell a story, a joke stops everything for a few minutes, and then the player finally decides on a course of action … WHAT??? YOU DON’T WANT TO DO THAT!!! YOU’LL GET US ALL KILLED!! … arguing ensues. Ah… the memories.

    And now they want us to play it all online … Sure. Let me fire up NWN. So much faster. No dice, no waiting and I can see what I am fighting and doing… sorry… crossed over to video games there for a moment. More on that in a bit.

    I have nothing against playing the game online via their system. But honestly I can play over the phone, via e-mail or via video and satellite on national TV. It all boils down to the same thing … the system can only go as fast the group of people playing it. You can play it like tournament chess and include a chess timer in making decisions or you can let people kibitz and discuss the story put before them.

    But how could they expect the masses of previously vested players and DMs to buy into a whole new Pen-n-Paper game? Honestly, if you are going digital … do it.

    Build the new game around the computer and make it a DVD with a Player application and a DM application that allow everyone to build and manage their PC or Campaign. Then incorporate that into the online management system for long distance playing. No books, just a simple manual … you know the kind we all toss after a week.

    I really don’t see the point of reprinting everything. Sell this new game as a Pen-N-Paper alternate and still publish the old 3.X system until the medium dies out.

    Imagine the profit margin … no overhead … no printing presses, no book binders, no specialty stores … hel, you don’t even need the DVD and case … Direct2Drive it.

    Then … you don’t have to worry about them networking. Your apps do it automatically if they are online. Join a group, start a campaign, advertise for players, or schedule a one-nighter, all run by the Player and DM apps.

    Need a rule, click a button. Need a grapple check … it does it. No need to look up what the numbers are or all the special circumstances. The PC app talks to the DM app running the game and voila the outcome. You don’t fight in a virtual environment … we have NWN for that… but you see a picture of the creature … and if you succeeded in a skill check you might even know something about it … shown right there for you to see.

    Now, I haven’t seen even a screenshot of their special connection software but I honestly doubt that it’s terribly special. WotC isn’t a computer game company. They’ve tried to just generate a PC building program … unsuccessfully … several times.

    But IMAGINE the finished product … you sitting at a table with your laptop. The dice put away. Pencils sitting next to a pad for those people who have issues typing notes, at the most. The DM sitting at the end of the table sending you information WHILE telling the story for you. Jimmy couldn’t come because he’s got to watch the kids but he’s still in the game. Monica moved to another state all together but she still shows up for the game.

    The adventure begins and the players enter a bar … a layout appears on the screen. They don’t get 3d avatars but they do get a 2d icon that represents them and they can move it on the map on their turn. No, need for figures and paper or vinyl maps … a shame but livable. They move about the bar and make their decisions.

    Player A asks a question of the barkeep by clicking on him and submitting it to the DM. The DM instigates a skill check … automatically run … and replies with what they think should be revealed.

    Player B … decides to insult the dwarf in the corner quietly sipping his ale. There’s always one moron playing, right? A bar fight ensues.

    The DM causes all of the participants to determine initiative order. The PCs only see their’s. The DM gets a list of the PCs and the NPCs. The DM goes around “the room” asking people for their actions on their initiative. Nothing’s written down. No dice rolled.

    And so on.

    No rules to consult … they are in the game. Need help with a particular rule … click the help button and do a search.

    I’m sure Mule or Cayle are ready to hop in and state that this is done elsewhere already, etc.

    BUT not by WotC with the D20 system with EVERYTHING.

    It seems to me that this is where we should be.

    #57011

    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    AMEN! To that T!

    (And I just might be Player B that starts the bar fight with the Dwarf) 😈

    #57012

    Cayle
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @thrym wrote:

    I’m sure Mule or Cayle are ready to hop in and state that this is done elsewhere already, etc.

    Did I feel my ears ring?

    I can’t comment on the current state of the art vis-à-vis PnP and whether or not what T described exists somewhere as I’m still stuck in the 80’s and regard Twilight 2000 with a homebrew combat system as the height of awesome (hey, it actually took the muzzle velocity and bullet grain weight into account for the damage tables) and never fully bought into 2E.

    I think I can comment on why the bloody hell WoC created this thing as they were pretty open about it.

    Remember, that bookshelf full of 1E, 2E and 3E material may make you a longtime D&D loyalist, but it does not help WotC’s bottom line in 2008. The oldtimer crowd can’t support the company forever. Each year, more and more decide that they are happy with what came before and stop buying new books. If WotC relies only on the grognards, it will wither and die. Sure, they may be happy if the oldtimers also buy the new books, but 4E is an attempt to escape grognard capture. Here is a quote from a terra nova article on that theme.

    When I worked on WWIIOnline we used Grognard to describe the hardcore sim players who would question every tweak we did to a vehicle or game play.

    While I loved the WWIIOnline community (some of the most dedicated MMO players there are), it is also clear that if you cater your game to Gorgnards.. you will most likely only retain Grognards.

    If we consider it, its not surprising that Grognard may adequately describe a large percentage of the population of small niche MMO’s.

    Go back and watch the videos that WotC released during GenCon 07. Watch carefully and read between the lines. Then read the original escapist article that turned the word grognard into a game design meme. WotC does not regard white wolf as their competition. They regard WoW as their competition. They feel that people may choose on any given evening whether to play D&D or go on a raid. They are trying to expand the PnP market to take in all those people who came to WoW. This is why they openly said that they were making D&D more like combat in an MMO.

    Why was WoW so successful? Most hard core MMO fans will point to other games as their favorite, so it certainly does not cater to the hardcore PvP (they play EVE Online), crafting (A Tale in the Desert), gritty and difficult PvE (Tabula Rasa, Everquest 2), roleplay (NWN, Second Life, Saga of Ryzom) etc. crowds. What WoW has is that it is easy to learn the ropes and that it is accessible to the casual player. “Casual” has been the buzzword in the MMO design space for a couple of years now and WotC want to get the casual player to play D&D. This casual player does not want wizards being few and far between and does not care about mystery. He knows tank/nuker/healer and thinks in terms of DPS.

    4E is not an update to D&D. It is a completely new game using the same IP and name recognition and aimed at a different market. Mark my words, 4.5 will introduce DPS into PnP.

    #57013

    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    The Setting: Middle Earth. The Fellowship of the Ring is poised at the gate to the Mines of Moria and are steeling themselves for the adventure within.

    Legolas: whose main tank?
    Frodo: gand turn on group lottery plz
    Gandalf has changed the group options.
    Gimli: guys, let me have any berserker drops
    Legolas tells levels 20-29, “moria group looking for healer”
    Frodo: thx
    Aragorn: I’ll be MT
    ** Boromir laughs heartily at Aragorn.
    Legolas: LMAO
    Elrond tells levels 20-29, “sorry guys, that’s a bit low level for me…”
    Aragorn: c’mon, I’ve got good HP
    Meriadoc: sure, because ranger’s make GREAT tanks…
    Legolas: gim and bor, roll for MT
    ** Gimli rolls 49.
    ** Boromir rolls 78.
    Boromir: Check this out: [Horn of Gondor]
    Gandalf: nice
    Frodo: Nice
    Peregrin: Wow, that rox
    Boromir: It’s awesome for keeping aggro
    Samwise: gonna be a good group
    Samwise: lots of DPS
    Gimli: You sure you guys don’t want us to mentor down?
    Frodo: no i’m ok
    Meriadoc: this is going to be a tough run, we’ll need everyone at full strength
    Gandalf: Okay, listen up
    Gandalf: Lego, Ar, and the little guys are on DPS
    Gandalf: Boro’s main tank, Gim you’re secondary
    Gimli: OK
    Gandalf: I’ve got the nukes, and if anything big comes our way I’ll try to keep it mezzed
    Gandalf: No healer, so no dying
    Boromir: lol
    Gandalf: Ready?
    Frodo: rdy
    Legolas: g2g
    Gandalf: Let’s DO this!

    #57014

    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    ..so what does DPS mean? 😳

    #57015

    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:
    #57016

    Monty
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    Basically, WoW is the FPS for the D&D crowd. No RP, just hack ’em up…… I could NEVER play that game.

    M3C

    #57017

    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @s-m-r wrote:

    ..so what does DPS mean? 😳

    Damage Per Second…

    It’s a pretty standard thing in MMO’s to see who can dish out the most damage. It’s usually a Tank (Meat Shield) or sometimes a Nuker (Wizard).

    Oh, and aggro is aggression. Most Tanks draw the Mobs of NPC critters to attack them. They take the aggro.

    Peace,
    Cor

    #57018

    Opinvu
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    @monty wrote:

    Basically, WoW is the FPS for the D&D crowd. No RP, just hack ’em up…… I could NEVER play that game.

    M3C

    True. But they all have a ruleset they go by. One in which you need to learn to maxamize your Character. Their own knock-off version of D&D was my point.

    They may have just created two classes… Old School, and New Schoolers which are incompatable in most cases. Either way they back in the News to generate more sales.

    #57019

    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    What Cayle said hit the nail on the head. It’s about drawing in the future generations. They are a business and to them the people who want to stick with the old systems aren’t gonna make them money. And most of those systems suffered from splat book saturation. Not that I think 4 is better than any other system. It is basically a new system. As someone said, the DnD IP put on top of a whole different system.

    Oh and T, DnD insider

    There is also RPtools which is a generic one me and my friends use for playing together. we have our macros to a point that we can pretty much automate most things.

    – mule

    #57020

    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    @cayle wrote:

    …(hey, it actually took the muzzle velocity and bullet grain weight into account for the damage tables) and never fully bought into 2E….

    Just point me to the one that’ll do a good job to blow my brains out.

    #57021

    Cayle
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @Lt. Tyler wrote:

    @cayle wrote:

    …(hey, it actually took the muzzle velocity and bullet grain weight into account for the damage tables) and never fully bought into 2E….

    Just point me to the one that’ll do a good job to blow my brains out.

    Well, strictly speaking, “damage” is the increase of order of entropy (disorder) in the system, which is the kinetic energy that “disappears” in collisions that don’t conserve kinetic energy, which means that you want lots of kinetic energy. Since kinetic energy is proportional to the mass of the bullet and the square of the velocity, increasing the muzzle velocity will do more for adding the maximum possible damage than mass, while increasing mass will increase the momentum as much as the velocity. This naturally means that higher grain counts are more reliable in doing the damage, while mach 3 muzzle velocities (typical for most high powered rifles) can do lots of damage, or just pass right through.

    Or you can just use an buffalo gun. 😛

    #57022

    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    Buffalo gun it is then….

    Ah, I feel much better! Thanks.

Viewing 22 posts - 1 through 22 (of 22 total)

You must be logged in to reply to this topic.