High Level PCs and RPing

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  • #32844
    domf
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Ive been noticing lots of high levelers around lately which I think is cool considering people are putting in the time do that…but I was just wondering the frequency of the PCs that are epic (over level 21)…it kind of seems that people are shying away from the RP and whatnot and just heading out to Arik to go experience farming…and those that cant make it out there on their own latch onto a high level PC who can meat shield them..

    now, dont get me wrong…I like the occasional night of bashing the crap out of baddies and coming away satisfied about the experience you just gained…but i think it kind of spoils it if its all you do…

    i realize i havnt been able to play much lately…mostly because the connection at school is extremely laggy…so i try to log in on the days that i am at home for the night…that being said, my spring break is next week and I will most likely be on during the week nights which leads me to my next question…

    is anyone interested in maybe getting a romp going? (BTP, T?) I realize a majority of you are working on MS2 but i think a night or two off would be okay. Was hoping to see some old PC’s (or whoever you would want to play) like Vru, Ederyn and Erica, matrimus, spana, monty, tan, Opi, Nordbert (though i know that isnt really possible) and anyone else i used to play with…might be fun to get something going…not necessarily an epic event…just something different

    any thoughts?

    #55760
    G_kinkaid
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Just gimmie a buzz on IM next week man. I prolly won’t be able to be in game before 9 eastern (workin 10’s next week) but I’ll be around.

    #55761
    Remus
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    What he said with less yank jazz

    #55762
    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Or you could all join in some roleplaying with the rest of us and remind us who the hel these characters are.

    https://markshire.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3725

    #55763
    domf
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    the weekend is no good…thats girlfriend time.

    #55764
    Valgrimm
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    it kind of seems that people are shying away from the RP and whatnot and just heading out to Arik to go experience farming

    Well I have had a totally different experience than you lately, domf. Players like Brindisium, Ceorlas, Cogano, Red, Osay, Sar, and Aels all have multiple high level players, but spend the bulk of their time in game, crafting and RPing. And they are all first rate RPers.

    Vru, Ederyn and Erica, matrimus, spana, monty, tan, Opi, Nordbert

    With the exception of Opi, who is on quite frequently, and Remus, I haven’t seen most of those you mentioned, in game for quite a while.

    #55765
    muddy
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    I’m more inclined to make these social functions if there is a set date/time. My problem is needing to be in bed at a decent time so I can be to work by 0600.

    #55766
    G_kinkaid
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    I’ve been in and out a few times lately.

    #55767
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    time, video card issues, will … these are keeping me out of game.

    – mule

    #55768
    Opinvu
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Mules excuse is why Opi is not around and stuck in story land. He is writing the conclusion to the Lich while I am stuck on one part of his journey in doing so. I shelved it for now while I work on the Blight series and work on NWN 2 interiors of Yar. Which I have a strange annoying issue with that is more of a visual annoyance than a operational one. Damned drivers again. (the fog of war grows on it’s own as I play) And, my dentists say my flossing is suffering too much… I told them to stick it! So, I ened up with two extra cavities and little less novacaine.

    #55769
    Monty
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    it kind of seems that people are shying away from the RP and whatnot and just heading out to Arik to go experience farming

    I just wanted to stick my $0.02 in. I think we have the best bunch of RP’ers in game, EVER. The only issue that I get concerned with is that sometimes the high level character takes a very low level character a) to places they are NOT ready to handle, or b) to places the character might be able to handle, but protects them to the point that the thrill of the danger is missing. Now, if you have a 9-10th level that wants to tag along to Arik with an entire group, just to see the place, ok.
    But for example, (and it’s only an example, no pointing fingers at all, ok?) taking a 20th level character into the Ogre Fort with a 6-7th level character as a tank so that that character cannot get killed, well….. *Looks at the ceiling, innocently* You never know, the local Ogres could be meeting with some high level bad guys, y’know? This might portend badly for both characters.
    I’m just saying that to have someone to watch your back is good, and having someone along to do your fighting for you so you can level is a bit cheesy. Of course, there are exceptions, I just hope that it’s in the back of your head when you select the PC to go help a friend check out a new area.
    BTW, that’s why the XP system has a curve, you know. The lower level character will actually get much less experience than if you bring a lower level PC to help out.

    M3C

    #55770
    muddy
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Another good one is higher level characters taking lowers to the dwarven enclave and then buying them the higher class magical weapons. How many of those acid longswords are now out there?

    *Shrugs*

    Take my comment with a grain of salt, I’m one of the older and crankier guys who have been around way too long.

    #55771
    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    *cough* I would never do anything like that but your post has made me think back to my early days on the server.

    It was nerve jangling to set out onto the Northern Plains in falling snow knowing that even one too many kobolds could spell disaster, and it often did.

    Dustan was my guide (I hope the old fellow has retired now and is sitting somewhere warm pulling on his pipe). We were similar in level, woefully under-equipped and seriously combat challenged but it was /such/ fun finding new places together, having near death experiences together and gaining REAL experience because of it all.

    Fun times.

    Edit – I was referring to monty’s post but muddy, once you get into crafting it isn’t hard to make more money than you know what to do with. Including purchasing /anything/ available for sale. Maybe that weapon shouldn’t be in the game.

    #55772
    Opinvu
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Keep in mind the goal of MS. RP and realistic environment. It is ment to be taken SLow and painful, that /is/ how life is, slow and painful to get ahead. You have to pick something you can handle and need to do before you can just go off and do what you want to do without reprocutions. Get your ducks in a row, learn to handle life.. then adventure. Powerleveling through isn’t the challenge, it’s toughing it out through the slow hardships the frozen wastelands provide. You gotta wok hard and long to survive, if your going fast, your cheating and the peasents will despise your noble snooty ways.. 😆 What I am getting at is going fast limits the RP avenues and door options. Going slow and having many hardships presents more drama options and more CDS and more time between levels to get things done. For me, not being a D&D start-up into gameing but a Nintendo junkie found the light of Baulder’s Gate… I see levels int he RP world as like an age. And you don’t age twice in a day, or in a week…. No way you can have soo much life experiance in one day to be that much better/stronger/smarter for the long term.

    As the desire to hurry up and win so you can go with the big boys and really get the good stuffs increases, the oppertunity for great RP and interactions is missed. Some eek out help rather than craft, some seek out a gift of something uber to use as a crutch.

    There are ways of still doing business as usual and make still makin it more fun, more realistic and untained. Higher levels run out without fear of orcs, go without your good armor and sword. Dress down and rely on your supiror strength and resolve more than your uber gear for fighting uber foe. Even for the ones who started this thread could take a different approach to the same old routines.
    Still, to each their own, but it is something that happens and can make one loose interest in the char and/or the norm.

    that’s my $0.02.

    #55773
    Valgrimm
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    How many of those acid longswords are now out there?

    I always thought it was unbalanced to have an uber +2 1d6 longsword, and no other weapons of any type comparable to that.

    #55774
    domf
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    i never meant to knock anyone’s RPing…I think there are lots of great RPers on MS…i just wanted to see if i could get other older people back into the routine..

    #55775
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    of knocking people’s RP? Throw a softball why don’t ya? 😛

    BTW, I can confirm there’s nothing for sale as strong as that +2 longsword in the baddy lands. Just in case ya wanted to know.. it is a rather unique and might sword, which at least is in a neutral city.

    – mule

    #55776
    Cayle
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @Opinvu wrote:

    Keep in mind the goal of MS. RP and realistic environment. It is ment to be taken SLow and painful, that /is/ how life is, slow and painful to get ahead. You have to pick something you can handle and need to do before you can just go off and do what you want to do without reprocutions. Get your ducks in a row, learn to handle life.. then adventure. Powerleveling through isn’t the challenge, it’s toughing it out through the slow hardships the frozen wastelands provide. You gotta wok hard and long to survive, if your going fast, your cheating and the peasents will despise your noble snooty ways.. 😆 What I am getting at is going fast limits the RP avenues and door options. Going slow and having many hardships presents more drama options and more CDS and more time between levels to get things done. For me, not being a D&D start-up into gameing but a Nintendo junkie found the light of Baulder’s Gate… I see levels int he RP world as like an age. And you don’t age twice in a day, or in a week…. No way you can have soo much life experiance in one day to be that much better/stronger/smarter for the long term.

    I have to say Opi; that the reason you stated is not why MS has a steep grind. You create a step grind to better RP only when you are too inexperienced to understand the side effects (and in the name of full disclosure, those of us who were principals on Etillica made exactly that mistake). It’s not to say that there are many RP worlds who don’t do this, but the ones that do are doing it because they are not looking at the whole picture.

    First, an academic diversion…

    I’d like to draw your attention to Nick Yee’s Dadelaus Project, specifically his player motivations article. It is really worth reading the whole article as it is considered landmark work within the professional MMO design community. In a nutshell, he wanted to know if the classic Bartle model of player types was really an accurate picture. Everyone and their monkey has taken the bartle test at one time or another and it is reasonable to ask whether empirical evidence supports Dr. Bartle’s anecdotal observations about there being four player types. To do this, he created a questionnaire that was filled in by 40,000 players of virtual worlds. He then sifted through the answers looking for statistical correlations so that he could build models of player profiles and motivations. One of the many conclusions he draws is that there are ten or so motivational categories that fall into three basic categorization families: Achievement, Socialization and Immersion. The motivational categories within a family correlate with one another, while the motivational categories do not correlate between families. In English, this means that if you like ganking people, you probably also like keeping score, while your interest in socializing is quite unrelated to either ganking or keeping score.

    It should also be pointed out that Nick Yee’s player motivations model is quite different from Bartle’s four player types. Yee and Bartle have criticized each others’ models. The principal differences are:

    • “killer” and “achiever” types seem to be the same people (achievement and competition correlate) according to the Yee player motivations model.
    • Bartle’s four types lump roleplayers in with socializers, while Yee’s model maintains that roleplay is a distinct motivation pattern that falls in the immersion family.
    • Yee could not initially find Bartle’s “explorer” type until he changed his analytical methods. Yee’s model puts the roleplayers into the same bucket as the explorers.

    The takeaway – Whether or not someone likes to roleplay is completely unrelated to whether or not they like to grind. This is an important point. One roleplayer may like the sense of achievement in a long grind while another may see it as an annoyance.

    The” chronologically old” characters being the most important/powerful/etc. is a desirable thing for a hardcore RP world to have. There are a number of ways to do this, but most require you to choose whether you want an achiever element. The two most common methods in the NWN community (where you are working within D20) are simply having a very low XP payout per kill as MS has or having a high payout, but with a low weekly XP cap. The downside to these two methods is that they tend to play to the extremes of the achiever score. The former is commonly used when you want to make score keeping an important aspect of the world. If you have a system where perks come with avatar capital (xp and loot), then there is a subtext saying that the creators of the world see achievement as important and reward for it. The latter is used when scorekeeping is not an important aspect of the world. You can’t appeal to achievers and non-achievers at the same time. The achievers will get annoyed if they don’t get any xp for hunting and the non-achievers will be annoyed if they feel forced to grind.

    MS takes an achiever friendly approach of course. It is a world that appeals to those for whom keeping score is important and are serious roleplayers. There is a German world (I forgot the name, it’s been ages since I talked to the lead) that gives out XP at the full PhB rate, but caps it at 2000xp per week. Yes, it takes two years to get to twenty and no, farming 24/7 won’t get you a single day faster. I had suggested something along these lines for The Gate (some of you may know what that was), but it received a generally negative reaction on the grounds that it would be “boring”. Boring is in quotes for a reason. MS is geared toward a combination of achiever/roleplayer. From what I recall of that discussion, I’d say that MS was built by people who score high in both categories and the “elder” players also fall into that category. At the time, it never occurred to me that roleplayers could have such differences in their liking of scorekeeping and I simply considered everyone else clueless and not ready to make the jump to a “better” RP experience. 😛 The fact is that people simply differ in what they like.

    So there is my analysis on the long march effect on MS. That turned into quite the tangent… What was the discussion about again?

    #55777
    Aelswith
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    Holy Cow!

    #55778
    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @Cayle wrote:

    What was the discussion about again?

    Um… corn dogs?

    And Aels got it right…

    Holy Cow!

    #55779
    Opinvu
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Cayle read more out of my own thoughts I keep in mind myself than intended or as some attack on Game Building Architecture and german class. I was just stating how I viewed it. That’s what this thread was about, hearing other’s perspective. Yes, I could be wrong on what I think MS’s foundation target might have been based upon, but it certainly works for me in thinking up things to do.

    #55780
    Rasbedian
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Ooo… nice. Thanks for the links, Cayle. Certainly was an interesting read, and I think I side with you on the concept of a Roleplay/Achievement coexistence. If this thread does so happen to stem into a broader discussion on others’ perspectives on the matter, I’d be personally very interested in seeing what it presents.

    #55781
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Very insightful Cayle. Yeah MS is definitely an RP/achiever world. Though it is tempered with the “no farming” rules to keep it from getting out of hand on the achiever end. I personally am probably a little of everything. RP/Explorer with some achiever. Though I am not much of an achiever, rarely do I get max level. On the other hand some might say I get max loot all the time.

    – mule

    #55782
    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    Sheesh, a guy goes on a vacation for one week and when I return I have all this readin’ to do.

    That was a very interesting article you linked Cayle. I always had something that stuck in my craw about the Bartle system, and especially seeing people with the results of their Bartle test in their sigs (on other boards) that somehow just didn’t quite make sense to me. Thus the breaking of the dichotomy between achievement and roleplaying was in retrospect obvious, but nice to see validated by some analysis of real players’ opinions.

    One thing I found a little unsatisfactory about the analysis is that while it focuses on what players state as their motivations for playing a game (which is reasonable, since it in some way asks to answer the question, how do we design a gameworld that people actually want to play in?), it doesn’t address what actually happens when people play, and whether these motivations work at cross purposes.

    Sure, a person might have achievement and roleplaying as their motivations for playing the game, but perhaps during any single activity (or time frame), these two motivations are mutually exclusive. This leads to times when players might focus just on achievement (e.g., making a Pass or Arik run) wherein RP is minimized, and then times when RP is maximized (e.g., spending time talking at Gargoyle’s, crafting). The players value both, but “compartmentalize” time spent into each, still fulfilling both motivations.

    The question then is whether the circumstances of the world (the players, the quests, the activities, the reward system) become such that one aspect becomes predominant over the other. All the players still value both, but maybe it’s easier to do one, and thus neglect the other.

    I’ll say that for me, achievement and RP often work against one another. At times I get focused too much on achievement, which detrimentally affects my investment in RP. And I’ll admit that sometimes my focus on achievement comes from a feeling of competition with other players who are higher level. It’s not that I want to beat them PvP, or ensure that my character has more influence than theirs. It’s just a feeling that I want to be relevant.

    Still MS (via the superlative DMs) does a good job of ensuring that low level characters are relevant. So I think it is more an issue I have with my own outlook rather than something necessarily inherent with the setup.

    As for my long absence, it’s just very hard to get time to log on for any length of time. Having a two year old is work. 🙂 I’ve been getting the itch though, so maybe soon enough I can find that backscratcher.

    LT

    #55783
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    The question of which takes precedence over the other in regards to RP or achieving is tricky. I think it would be based on a few things. First and foremost what the player prefers, but also the players mood at the time, and the value you’re likely to get out of each. By the last I mean the players subjective judgement of whether the next level will be worth it more than the RP or social gain to be made. I can think of scenarios where the next level wouldn’t all that special (no feats, stat bumps, or powers to be gained) but maybe the RP would be with someone you really enjoy RPing with. As far as mood, well sometimes I am in a solitary mode and sometimes I am in a social mood, for instance. Basically it comes down to a lot of internal, individual, time and place based judgements. I would wonder at the effectiveness of any survey that tried to judge precedence. But it is a good question.

    – mule

    #55784
    Osay
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    My opinion on the matter really has to do with my mood at the time. Some of the characters are more motived by gain(Quinne for instance) which would be more based on achievement, which can also be said for Pubert who loves to talk with people but his(my) desire is to master brewing(all his xp came from crafting) so he can make his own brew, for everyone to enjoy. I would have to say I’m in the middle of the road on this issue. I love to RP with all of my characters but at the same time I love a little bit of gain(although I have turned down the chance to go on XP runs on several occasions, kinda gets boring running into the orc caves for that 200th time) by achieving a new level, new abilities, which does have an effect on RP.
    My $.02

    #55785
    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    Ah, player mood is a great reason behind why RP focus and achievement focus might work against each other. Good points mule and Osay.

    I’ve definitely had the same feeling. You come home from work, get dinner ready, young one fed, washed, in bed, sit down to play and look at the log in screen.

    Do you choose the character deep in an RP storyline, having lots of personal difficulties, or do you choose the goofy looking dwarf that can smash things going solo?

    Also available time plays into it for me. If I know time might be short, I hate to log in and start up some heavy RP, only to have to disappear at a moment’s notice.

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