It looks like D&D 4th Edition is coming soon

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  • #53563
    RangerSG
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    I won’t turn this into a ‘which version is best’ thread. But sorry. 3e is to me a disaster in PnP. 3.5 is playable, but not terribly fun. And 2e was only designed as an excuse to kick Gary Gygax to the curb and create the FR.

    So yeah, I’d still be using 1e rules if I could find a party to RP with. And while 3e is a very good system for a cRPG, it STINKS for PnP. And I seriously doubt 4e will be any better. In fact, almost certainly much…much worse.

    #53564
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Jeez, you people put up three pages in a day. At best I skimmed the comentary on the first page and a half and then skipped the rest. I’ll go back and read them as the week goes on.

    For my money, the earlier editions had more heart. Each edition after that clarified and complicated the rules more and sterilized the game more for me. I liked having stat requirements for Druid, Ranger, and Paladin. Spell casters were not the force they are in third edition. The ease of buffing spells in 3rd edition makes it much harder on the DM to balance encounters for the party. One fighter loaded up can wipe out an huge force, but if you bring the force and for some reason they don’t prepair for it, bring out the meatwagon.

    Take a look back through the 1st edition DMG. There is a wealth of useful information it that book. Things from nation building, to keep construction, to games of chance, to random npc personality traits, to random dungeon generation (which I have used with fantastic results) to underwater spell use. I still use this book today. The other nice thing about it was it could stand alone. It had monster stats in the back, character information and spells in the front. You could play the game just off the one book if that was all you had. Best AD&D book put in print.

    I really don’t feel the need for 4th edition, but book sales and video game royalties are what keep the companies that make this stuff alive.

    oh… as far as the Troll thing… I would say first edition was 5 trolls for an encounter, 2nd was 1 troll, and 3rd was 3 trolls (one to distract the party while the other two try to sneak up on the wizard. All bets are off if a cat lord (prc) is present.)

    #53565
    muddy
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    2.0, 3.5, 2.9, 4.6….

    don’t matter what they call it, the rule books are merely “suggestions” whenever i’m running the game. on a side note, the 3.5 ranger was redone to the point where they were actually worth a bent copper piece to play.

    #53566
    G_kinkaid
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    They shouldn’t have mentioned MMO’s really. They knew it would cause massive kneejerking. If the DM has any ability, the craptastic elements of MMO’s will be absent from tabletop gaming.

    You aren’t forced to do a quest or be level x before you can leave StarterTown. There will not be 20 higher lvl pc’s in StarterTown challenging all the “newbs” to duels and/or muling leet gear to their new characters or buddies characters (will just say the MMO crowd will not be at your table to save a bunch of further writing).

    Streamlining some things sounds pretty cool to me. You can spend more time on the adventure instead of in combat. Small battles aren’t usually so bad but they can be a snoozefest at times. Players can be distracted by unimportant things enough as it is, making combat and skill checks resolve quicker should let a game cover more ground in a session. That’s a step in the roight direction.

    I do hope the troll example Cayle mentioned in this thread is an exaggeration. If we want to lay waste to millions of weenie critters on our rapid ascention to power we’d be playing Diablo 2. The wizards not running out of spells thing is disturbing as well, campaigns can already get out of hand when a caster can start passing around maximized buffs of every flavor to the entire party (as Steve pointed out)

    I’m interested to see how this is gonna turn out. DnD is still gonna rock if you have a good group to play with. House rules ftw.

    #53567
    Brak
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    @Iathouz wrote:

    All bets are off if a cat lord (prc) is present.)

    I warned you people, feel the power of a Gord reference. You got the shark in the pool now.

    #53568
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    I faintly remember the Cat Lord. I’ll have to look that one up.

    As a friend of mine pointed out. They said they are both streamlining combat and offering the PC’s more options. How is this compatible? Him being a DM immediately pointed out that what boggs down combat most is the Player having to sift through his dozen abilities and choose one and then the DM having to figure things out and respond. Therefore the more options = more bogg. Of course if everything is a D20 roll then sure the reponses will be quick but the actual strategy and whatnot will not.

    – mule

    #53569
    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    How about this for the catlord?

    @mule wrote:

    …As a friend of mine pointed out. They said they are both streamlining combat and offering the PC’s more options. How is this compatible? Him being a DM immediately pointed out that what boggs down combat most is the Player having to sift through his dozen abilities and choose one and then the DM having to figure things out and respond. Therefore the more options = more bogg. Of course if everything is a D20 roll then sure the reponses will be quick but the actual strategy and whatnot will not.

    – mule

    Well, if for example they replace the set in stone class abilities with customizeable class abilities (e.g., instead of the usual set of abilities classes gain as they advance levels, you now get to select from a tree of class abilites – something similar to d20 modern). Then, at any given level, a PC has the same total number of abilities, but he got to choose precisely which apply to his character.

    Next, make each of those abilities easier to resolve mechanically.

    Viola! More options, and less bog!

    Hey wait, earlier you were worried that they’d remove grapple as an option, and now you seem to be worried that they will keep too many options! 🙂

    And from reading some of the 4E designer’s blogs, I have seen grapple mentioned as being used and in the rules for 4E. So you should still have that option.

    #53570
    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    @RangerSG wrote:

    I won’t turn this into a ‘which version is best’ thread.

    Yeah, I think that was my fault. Sorry about complaining so much… 😳

    #53571
    BoostNJuice
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    I also liked the leveling system in the game, Dungeon Seige. you leveled in the things you used, i.e. use a sword to kill something, and you gained a level in melee, use a bow and you level up in archary, use a spell……….. this way you could custom build a PC.

    Not take two levels in fighter and kill tons of stuff and start taking wizard levels, Fighter 2, wizard 5, but always uses a sword…..

    #53572
    BeyondThePale
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    I’ve played other similar games Boost. Damn fine point. Just wish I knew which ones they were… Nevermind. It was Wasteland and those Crazy Militant Nuns.

    #53573
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Well as I pointed out that was my friends opinion. He’s all for streamlining combat, as I said he’s a DM.

    So as I basically understand it you will always have the same number of abilities but you get to slot new one’s in as you advance. So you are still very limited on your arsenal of usable abilities at any given time. Great.

    – mule

    #53574
    RangerSG
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    @s-m-r wrote:

    @RangerSG wrote:

    I won’t turn this into a ‘which version is best’ thread.

    Yeah, I think that was my fault. Sorry about complaining so much… 😳

    No apologies needed on my account. I just don’t want to start a version rant because I could go off for MONTHS about how 3e is a catastrophy as a PnP platform. :p

    IMHO, the whole system ‘jumped the shark’ when they kicked Gygax to the curb.

    #53575
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    The Cat Lord reference was about V-M’s cat lord from PNP.

    P1: “I summon my fiendish-dire-enlarged-livingheavymetal-deathcat.”

    DM: “Ok, put it on the board.”

    P2: “Ch**st! It takes up 14 hexes.”

    DM “We had to scale it back a bit”

    P1: “Can I put the second one over here?”

    P2: “Please dear god make him stop.”

    P1: “And its all legal”

    P2: “Tell me… are they immune to fire?”

    DM: “No.”

    P2: “Excellent”

    P1: “They don’t have to be. 30 reflex save and evasion.”

    #53576
    Lt. Tyler
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs:

    s-m-r, I don’t think you should feel bad about your 2nd ed comments at all. They were impossible to argue with anyway. You have a preference for low magic campaigns (as any aesthetic choice, can’t argue with that), you observed that 3E does not fit this style of campaign very well (which logically you could argue against, but I think you’d be wrong), so therefore you don’t prefer 3E. Eminently sensible.

    And as for the catlord, that’s a better explanation. I was thinking you were referring to this:

    He [Gord] is slain once by a devil swine in the Vesve and arrives at the manse of the Catlord. He has relations with Tirrip the tigerwere at the Manse of the Catlord.

    Who knew Gygax was into furries?

    Find it here, since I only ever read the first Gord book and that was way to long ago to remember anything but the cover: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/flanpc.html#gord

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