Keeping stealthy

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  • #31949
    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Cormac and Dustan got jumped by 5 Dire Spiders last night – while we were stealthed but not in detect mode. As part of the post mortem we had an extensive debate about the game engine and how stealth rolls work.

    The moral of the story is if you want to be stealthy (and stay alive) in Markshire you should bear the following things in mind. Live and learn eh? 🙂

    POSTS FROM BIOWARE DEVS:

    Posted: Friday, 23 February 2007 07:34PM

    Ok, I got a PM from fuzzy_shortyking about this, so I thought I’d scour the old BioWare programmer list for people who’d worked on NWN. After three or four attempts, I managed to snag the inimitable Brenon “Kilimanjaro” Holmes, who was able to give me the low-down on Detect Mode and all of its secret, inner workings. We tried to involve Craig “Uncanny Frankie Valli” Welburn in the conversation, but the network gods we worship were not appeased by our offering of stale Doritos and croissants. Here’s the breakdown I received from Mr. Holmes, which is probably about as “official” as any info gets. He went through old NWN code and everything!

    Passive (default) mode
    Trap detection radius: 5ft
    Trap detection rate: 6 seconds (every round)
    Trap detection roll: d20
    Spot/Listen roll: d10

    Active (Detect) mode
    Trap detection radius: 10ft
    Trap detection rate: 3 seconds (twice per round)
    Trap detection roll: d20
    Spot/Listen roll: d20

    Stealth checks
    Player detects stealth: 5 times per second
    Player rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds
    NPC detects stealth: 4 seconds
    NPC rolls for hide/move silently/spot/listen: 6 seconds

    Hopefully, that will clear something up. I’m still confused.


    Posted: Friday, 23 February 2007 10:31PM

    Blargh. Had all the modifiers typed up, and then went for lunch… stupid forum timeouts .

    Listen/Move Silently:

    * Automatically cannot detect silenced creatures
    * Can only detect invisible (or when you’re blind) creatures within the max attack range.
    * Cannot hear sanctuaried creatures
    * If there is something between you and the target (including creatures) there’s a modifier of +5 DC for every 40cm of thickness in outdoor areas
    * In indoor areas, if the LOS is blocked and the target is within 4 tiles (dfs search) there’s a modifier of +2 DC
    * Area listen check modifiers
    * +10 DC if you are in combat
    * +5 DC if the target is standing still
    * -5 DC if you are standing still
    * +1 DC for every 3 meters of distance to the target
    * Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
    * Favoured enemy bonuses

    Spot/Hide In Shadows:

    * Automatically cannot detect invisible creatures
    * Automatically cannot detect anything while blinded
    * Area spot check modifiers
    * During Night, if you do not have a light on you (including weapon lights and darkvision) there is a +5 DC modifier
    * During Night, if the target has a light on them, there is a -10 DC modifier
    * For stealthed players only, there is a +5 DC if they are in the back arc
    * +10 DC if you are in combat
    * +5 DC if the target is standing still
    * -5 DC if you are standing still
    * Relative size modifiers (Tiny: +8, Small: +4, Medium: 0, Large: -4, Huge: -8)
    * Favoured enemy bonuses

    There might be some additional modifiers, however I can’t recall any off the top of my head and without doing an in depth search through the code I probably won’t find them all. Hopefully this answers any additional questions you folks had.
    _________________

    #48899
    muddy
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    You got your move silently and hide skills pimped out? Sometimes bad things happen to good characters… it only takes a 1 and you’re screwed no matter what your skills are… which you probably already know.

    #48900
    Brindisium
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    @muddy wrote:

    You got your move silently and hide skills pimped out? Sometimes bad things happen to good characters… it only takes a 1 and you’re screwed no matter what your skills are… which you probably already know.

    Hide and move silently were pretty well pumped up. With effects like camouflage running hide was up in the 20’s. The thing is though, like you said, you get a new chance to roll a 1 every 6s and *each* hostile NPC gets a chance to roll a 20 every 4s.

    With all the other modifiers kicking in (we were moving and one of us had a light on a weapon) staying stealthy long enough to cross a map is a VERY serious challenge.

    But hey, nobody said Markshire was going to be easy right!

    Edit for splling

    #48901
    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    @Brindisium wrote:

    But hey, nobody said Markshire was going to be easy right!

    *Watches the footprints in the snow* Nope… 8)

    #48902
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    a one on a hide check should not be an automatic failure. Skillls don’t work that way. From personal experience, you can get past most things when you hit a 30 hide AND move silent. One has a reasonable expectation to get by things like giants and orcs at mid teens. mostly because they have spot and listens around zero. Now dire spiders are a different story. They have (by my estimate, a DM could look it up if you convinced them) somewhere between a 12 and 18 spot/listen. A 35 hide/move is what you need to be sure to get past them.

    Some factors you might want to consider… 6 of them get 6 checks… if you glow in the dark you are easier to spot… if you open a chest you are also easier to spot, (ok hear, same idea)… indoor/outdoor makes a difference to rangers, elves and halflings.

    It makes a difference if you get spotted or heard as well. If they spot you you’re forked, if they hear you, you might still be able to get away if you can walk out of the hearing range, in which case they’ll lose you again.

    Moral of the story is a 20’s hide/move is still in the risky range. you want to be good, push it to the 35 – 40 range.

    You would have to ask Thryme or BTP what they have true seeing set to. Some places make (character) true seeing a spot/listen bonus (+2/caster level was what one place i’ve seen was) others have it be automatic. I haven’t yet seen monster true seeing that wasn’t auto.

    #48903
    BeyondThePale
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    We do not apply true seeing to any creatures other than dragons.

    Anything else would be uncivilised. And cheesey. And we hate cheese. We try to adhere to our own nefarious and harsh rules.
    From rule 9

    …Keep cheese out of here please. Oh, and no cheese. Also, if you feel like acting cheesey, don’t. Avoid cheese. Cheese = BAD.

    Casters may have the spell in their arsenal, but nothing save dragons has it on all the time. This being said, Corgano put out a very big point. Much of Markshire is covered in snow or sand or forest. If you are outdoors, the area you are in likely has bonuses or minuses to the stealth skills. This may have been the case. Mule has an uber stealth PC and he was spotted by giants quite often, to his dismay. I think this changed when he got to a high enough level.

    #48904
    Remus
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    @BeyondThePale wrote:

    We do not apply true seeing to any creatures other than dragons.

    Anything else would be uncivilised. And cheesey. And we hate cheese. We try to adhere to our own nefarious and harsh rules.
    From rule 9

    …Keep cheese out of here please. Oh, and no cheese. Also, if you feel like acting cheesey, don’t. Avoid cheese. Cheese = BAD.

    Casters may have the spell in their arsenal, but nothing save dragons has it on all the time. This being said, Corgano put out a very big point. Much of Markshire is covered in snow or sand or forest. If you are outdoors, the area you are in likely has bonuses or minuses to the stealth skills. This may have been the case. Mule has an uber stealth PC and he was spotted by giants quite often, to his dismay. I think this changed when he got to a high enough level.

    I was exploring Arik invisibly yesterday, and i was surprised when two purple wyrms made a beeline straight towards me. I jigged about to make sure they were following me, and they were. Do they have a vibrations thing going on that mechanically is represented by true seeing, or was that just a really mean pair?

    It looked like they were mating.

    #48905
    Thrym
    Keymaster
    • Markshire PCs: Grottle, Gruzk, Ashimar

    For those that are interested, the True Seeing nerf is listed here … https://markshire.com/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=1613

    Dragons have Dragon Senses which have many different abilities functioning at all times. Among them include “blindsight” which bypasses a lot of protections.

    Worms have Tremorsense which also bypasses a lot of protections. Illusions don’t work on creatures that cannot see and sense their surroundings through other means.

    Another common ability in monsters is Scent which is not an ability in NWN1 but can be replicated through a similar means to what we have done for Tremorsense and Dragon Senses. This ability exists on such creatures as Chimera.

    #48906
    s-m-r
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Still impressed by all the work that’s gone into the game here. 😀

    #48907
    vlan2k
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    When in the forest and with Camouflage, Thorvald has around 42-45 for Hide, and 38-41 for Move Silent. Learned the hard way that you CAN’T stealth a dragon. Big ol’ green chuckled, shrugged off the arrows…. and et him up good!!

    #48908
    lorgin_2003
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    i don’t feel safe trying to stealth around with anything less than 40 in each skill. i never feel safe, no matter how high my scores are, when a dragon is involved. they know you’re coming a mile away, and not even invisibility helps. if they can’t see you, they can hear you. if they can’t hear you, they can smell you. if they can’t smell you, they can feel you. if you sneak, they will eat you.

    a score less than 20 can’t be relied on at all. if you roll low, and the spotter rolls high, you’re found. i’ve found that actually RPing the stealth does help, but you still gotta move fast.

    20’s to low 40’s get you past a lot of stuff, but there are still times when you get caught. due to the environment or the spotter’s counterscores.

    mid 40’s and above are when you can actually rely on your stealth. you can sneak past most things, and what you can’t usually can’t be snuck past.

    basically, the best way i can say to treat stealth is like you’re playing a metal gear game. make use of the environment, know how to avoid lines of sight as well as earshots, and take advantage of the situation.

    #48909
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    Them damn barbarian hill giants in Arik still spot nordbert about half the time. Someone needs to poke their eyes out. Oh and yeah nordbert still gets seen. Though almost never by mundane things anymore.

    I’d say everyones estimates are right. 30’s to feel confident and 30-50’s to seal the deal. Dragons and anything with the cheaty sight will still spot you 100% of the time.

    Might I suggest keeping in mind their line of sight, the distance the can see from, and your surroundings. Try to skirt around things, always keep a look out for monsters. Oh and hit tab a lot.

    The forest sucks for spotting things ahead of times.. I can tell ya.. oh avoid the bears.

    – mule

    #48910
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Some things do have a different awareness radius. A dragon tends to be aware farther out then say an orc.

    oh, and has anyone by any chance seen my avatar? Seventy ton metal objects really shouldn’t be able to sneak off like that.

    #48911
    mule
    Moderator
    • Markshire PCs:

    I see it just fine. (avatar)

    Oh and yeah them dragons have a VERY large sight radius. I can’t even see them when they spot nordbert or Ghak most times.

    – mule

    #48912
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    odd, why can’t I see it then?

    #48913
    Corgano
    Participant
    • Markshire PCs:

    *Looks down to the last line in his Sig*

    Er… nope. Havee no idea where a 70 ton metal thing could have gone.

    *Runs off and hides behind a metal leg*

    #48914
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    I knew that codebreaker Thryme put in the module was going to be trouble

    oh, yes…

    THIS ENDS NOW!!!!

    #48915
    domf
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    Yea…I rarely (dare i say never) get spotted…even with TS

    but my hide and ms are pretty much “pimped” out…ive always gone by the rule of thumb, if your hide or ms are 20 points above the other characters spot and listen (respectively) you should be good…

    otherwise you get to see shadowy things like iathouz walking across a river..

    #48916
    Iathouz
    Member
    • Markshire PCs:

    If you can’t see a 5th level character with only two levels of rogue then you really have a problem.

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